The question of whether “honey is vegan” has been a decade-long question among the vegan community. When this piece was first written in 2008, it was by Lane, and he shared his thoughts as to why he eats honey as a vegan. Before we begin discussing the controversy behind honey, you can read Lane’s perspective below:
“Thanks to Nash Veggie for tweeting me this article on Slate entitled “The Great Vegan Honey Debate.” I really enjoyed reading this. There are so many things to quote from this article.
You’ll never find a self-respecting vegan downing a glass of milk or munching on a slice of buttered toast. But the modern adherent may be a little more accommodating when it comes to the dairy of the insect world: He may have relaxed his principles enough to enjoy a spoonful of honey.
Now, I’m a self-respecting vegan, and I fully expect to have a slice of pizza next time I’m in New York, deliberately. (BTW, pizza in NYC means a slice of cheese pizza, no other toppings.) Some people say it is this attitude specifically that excludes me from being a vegan, but I disagree. I consider myself to be a law-abiding citizen, but I occasionally exceed the posted speed limit (note: this is hard to do… I live in Los Angeles). One or two slices of pizza out of 1,095 meals (365 * 3) still makes me a vegan, in my book.
I am a vegan who eats honey. Again, a stance that has some of the vegan community pointing fingers and saying “You’re not a real vegan.” To that I say, you’re entitled to your opinions. I consider myself a vegan. Yes, in the animal, vegetable, mineral categorization, bees are animals. However, they are insects. I would not hesitate to have my house tented or sprayed if I had termites; insects are killed collaterally in the harvesting of my produce… If I’m willing to kill insects in these instances, is it not hypocritical to forego eating honey? If my point of view isn’t sufficient enough to sway you, here’s what Vegan Action, has to say:
Many vegans, however, are not opposed to using insect products, because they do not believe insects are conscious of pain. Moreover, even if insects were conscious of pain, it’s not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables, since the harvesting and transportation of all vegetables involves many ‘collateral’ insect deaths.
(This group has been established for over 10 years; they are a vegan outreach group. They’re calling it an acceptable vegan behavior. This is the party line I choose to follow.)
It’s also been pointed out to me that the original definition of vegan, according to the Vegan Society who coined the term back in 1944: “. . . eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey.”
Some people complain that the fact that some vegans eat honey, while others don’t (refined sugar too), causes confusion in the non-vegan sector. Perhaps it does. But “vegan” is confusing for most non-vegans anyway. Do you eat eggs, milk, fish? What do you eat anyway? Before you condemn those of us who eat honey, remember, there are no perfect vegans out there.”
Lane defended his appetite for honey by stating that one of the well-known definitions of veganism is avoiding any foods that cause that species pain. Butchering a cow for its meat is obviously not vegan since the cow endures pain during the process. Chopping down plants for veggies fits the lifestyle of a vegan since it’s been well-researched that plants do not feel pain. So one thing we have to ask ourselves when we derive honey from bees, do bees get hurt in the process? Bees do feel pain, so does the process of gathering their honey cause them pain?
Anyhow, let’s get into the article!
Is Honey Vegan? – The Short Answer
Whether you eat honey or not as a vegan depends largely on your understanding of the concept of veganism. What is meant by that is that if you define veganism as the refusal to consume animal meat and products, you are likely to avoid honey as well? On the other hand, if you see it as a philosophy of not consuming products that create an unnecessary burden on other living beings, consuming honey might not be out of the question. That is, as long as it comes from local producers who treat the bees humanely and with care, and more importantly, honey that is not needed for the bees is taken.
Is Honey Vegan? – The Long Answer
To begin discussing this topic properly, we should first discuss bees. Since the latest big scare in the latter half of the 2010s that happened when large swaths of bee colonies throughout the world started dying off without any obvious reason, awareness about the indispensable role that bees play inside the ecosystem has spread rapidly.
We pretty much all know that the idea we have heard a million times in various forms – “no bees – no food – no humanity” – simply holds true according to all the information we currently have at our disposal. But what was overlooked in favor of more sensational and clickable news stories is that the honeybee is only one of many pollinator species.
Aside from several other bee species like the bumblebee and other insects like butterflies, another important pollinator in nature is various bird species. Hummingbirds, spiderhunters, sunbirds, honeycreepers and honeyeaters are the most common pollinator bird species. Now you might be asking yourself why in God’s name do I ramble about birds in an article about honey.
Well, the thing is that honey is often thought of as a byproduct of bees pollinating various plant species. This is oftentimes used as a justification and explanation – claiming that the support of the honey industry equals support for bee conservation, and is, therefore, a moral impetus. The reality is not as it would seem.
Bees produce honey for bees. They collect the nectar from millions of flowers, which they store in a secondary “nectar stomach”. When they arrive in the hive, they regurgitate the nectar for the worker bees to process and store. By processing the nectar, the worker bee adds other enzymes and nutrients to the mixture and then proceeds to remove water from the nectar by fluttering with its wings.
The final product is the golden viscous liquid we know as honey. Stored in the honeycomb, the honey is meant to provide much-needed food in harsh winter conditions when the hive hibernates because of cold weather, and for circumstances of reduced availability of food. An example of such a situation would be an overly rainy spring which causes some plant varieties, not to flower or a prolonged drought that reduces the number of flowering plants severely.
In those situations, bees consume the honey they have previously stored and the colony survives. And in times of abundance, that honey is used to feed offspring and enlarge the number of bees in the colony. In commercial beekeeping, this honey is the main resource and the well-being of the bees is secondary at best.
Commercial Beekeeping
To expand on that: commercial beekeepers will manage hundreds or even thousands of beehives at once. To stay profitable, they have to produce the largest amount of honey in the quickest way possible, and with the least manpower used. To do this they will first harvest all the honey from every beehive. That means that they won’t take the “surplus” or whatever the bees don’t currently need, but they will take all of it.
And they don’t harvest it by taking out every frame with honeycombs on it and gently sweeping off the bees with specialized brushes either – since that would use up too much time and manpower – they either use noxious fumes that force the bees to evacuate, or they use vacuums that frankly kill off many of the bees in the process.
Since they, however, need the bees to keep the production going, they need an alternative food source to keep them alive. They can’t use honey since it’s their main product and they can’t keep enough plants that will flower throughout the year and feed the bee population.
The cheapest alternative to honey is then selected as a substitute. This includes various mixtures of sugar and water that provide the necessary calories to the hive at a fraction of the cost. This is a problem because, without the added nutrients and minerals, as well as traces of pathogens and other impurities, the colony cannot develop any kind of immunity. This leads to the bees becoming increasingly susceptible to diseases and parasites.
When a colony starts showing symptoms of the disease the producer pumps them with pesticides and antibiotics – in the best-case scenario, that is. In the worst-case scenario, the cost of curing the colony is too great to be profitable – and they simply burn it.
Small Scale Beekeeping
Any way you look at it, commercial beekeeping is as inhumane as the dairy industry. But to avoid this story being all the way one-sided, let’s talk about humane alternatives. Those are several small-scale varieties of beekeeping that aim to help restore the natural balance and reduce our impact on bees as an integral part of the ecosystem.
They include “balanced beekeeping” (harvesting only the “surplus” honey), “natural beekeeping” (little to no interference with the hive) and “conservation beekeeping” (the beekeeper does not harvest or otherwise interact with the beehive), to mention a few.
In addition to all of these methods having far less impact on the health of bee colonies, and the collection of honey being much more humane due to the small number of beehives kept (even when it is being collected), these methods are much better for the environment as well.
The environmental impact of commercial beekeeping is primarily detrimental to the population of other pollinators that we mentioned before. Small-scale beekeepers don’t significantly affect this balance since they create little to no deficit in the volume of nectar available in nature.
Conservational beekeepers have virtually no impact at all since they don’t provide any additional advantage to the honeybee in relation to other species in the way of survival. The most important contribution to lessening the environmental footprint we leave behind is that small-scale beekeepers don’t engage in hired pollination.
Hired Pollination
Chauffeuring beehives in the back of a 16-wheeler in order to pollinate the monoculture fields of large agricultural producers is the hidden motherload of commercial beekeepers.
For significant monetary reimbursement, they will drive for miles on end with the bees in cramped conditions, exposed to various noxious fumes, and under severe threat from the movement; and in addition to the initial payment, the honey that the bees produce by collecting the nectar from the customer’s field that is in need of pollination is theirs to keep.
This is a commercial boon for the beekeeper, but pure poison to the environment. The bees that are used in this manner are more susceptible to sickness and disease, die-offs are huge and there is very little done to prevent it.
This poses a danger to the gene pool of the bees since with every surviving generation they become less resistant to the actual natural environment, not to mention the detrimental effect of reduced genetic diversity. Add to this the tons of CO2 being unnecessarily pumped into the air with every trip and you get an ecological catastrophe.
Small-scale producers simply don’t participate in this practice. Even if they wanted to, the small number of beehives wouldn’t be able to pollinate large fields quickly enough for them to be viable. That means that even though you still have to pay attention to who you are buying your honey from, a good start is finding small, local producers. Even if you are not all that concerned with the environmental dimension of the argument, the fact that those fields are almost exclusively monoculture farms is reason enough to prefer the small-scale local producer.
The Bee Diet
Having spent the better portion of this discussion exploring our dietary wants and needs, let’s now turn to what the bee’s diet should, could or must look like.
As previously mentioned, bees need honey to survive. But beyond needing honey, they need a wide variety of flowering plants to ensure that the honey they produce provides them with the necessary nutrients not only to survive but also to maintain their immune system and eventually thrive in the local ecosystem.
Small-scale producers can ensure this by allowing the bees to graze in different biomes – from local woodlands with flowering trees to meadows with wildflowers and gardens with different fruits and vegetables. Large-scale commercial producers will force the bees to feed on one culture alone, especially if they engage in hired pollination, and that reduced variety in their diet would be detrimental to their health, even if it wasn’t swiftly replaced with sugar and sold to you instead.
The obvious conclusion here is that necessity would dictate consumption. If there was an imperative need for humans to include honey in their diet, some of the mentioned methods of harvesting it would certainly qualify as ethical. Therefore, we can shift the argument to consider whether eating honey, even from those ethical producers, is necessary at all. The short answer is no.
Honey has been proven to have some medicinal properties, especially in the topical treatment of injuries, but there are plant-based alternatives that are just as effective. In terms of nutrition, the jury is still out, but as far as we know, honey is mostly a form of sugar, it has no special nutritional properties, and even when recommended by physicians it sits firmly in the “use sparingly” section of the food pyramid.
I especially liked this post, particularly the quote from Daniel Engber about the majority of fruit and vegetable crops relying on pollination by domesticated bees. Surprising how many people don’t realise this :-)
I have never heard of rental hives before, will have to read up on the subject. For me, I choose not to eat honey, but having said that it’s not a huge sacrifice as I’m not that keen on it anyway.
“Vegan” as a label is useful for identifying foods (and other goods) that contain no animal products and have not been tested on animals. Therefore I would not expect to find honey in a food labelled as vegan.
However, using “vegan” as a label to self-identify and pillory others whose commitment varies from your own seems limiting to me. Everyone is a person with their own opinions, their own take on what is acceptable to them when it comes down to personal ethics. Labelling people is rarely productive.
Interesting post. It’s funny how much heated debate comes from honey. I don’t eat it, though I have been reading about how eating locally grown honey can help protect people from seasonal allergies. Interesting. I agree with Kate, though, labelling is quite often counterproductive. People who enjoy wearing the vegan label, but then go out and wear leather, eat dairy, eat fish, etc. frustrate me because they give the message to critical omnis that vegans “can’t live” without these things.
I guess we all need to fight our own battles.
Thanks for the link!
I meant to put grown in quotes…sorry, haven’t fully awoken yet!
Great post!
I wholeheartedly agree with you but would add one thing: I wish we had “accepted” definitions that were better understood by the general public. When I first went vegetarian not too long ago many people (I live south of Nashville) asked me if I eat fish or chicken. To southerners apparently giving up meat entirely is difficult to conceive! When there is pork in all the vegetables as a matter of course, being vegetarian is hard.
Thanks for your terrific post. Eating honey once in awhile and dairy once a year shouldn’t exclude you from the vegan label. I like the speed limit analogy. If I eat one little piece of bacon in my green beans a year (accidentally) does this make me an omnivore? No!
I’m a vegan and I have two hives of honeybees and I totally agree. The anti-honey thing makes my head explode. Life is rough for migrant beehives, but that is not an inherent quality of honey production. Honey can be gathered from happy bees without causing them any hardship. Unlike milk or meat or eggs.
PS I just went and read that actual article, and let me just say, that whole paragraph of reasons why people think beekeeping is “cruel and exploitative” is ridiculous. Keeping bees is the same as having a dog. We manage the hive in order to keep it strong and healthy, and it is not cruel. I mean, my dog thinks it is cruel that I don’t let him eat all the filthy hamburger wrappers he finds but it is for his own good.
My Dog eats honey bees! When my herb garden is in bloom she sits there waiting for some harmless bee to stray from the pack.
She has been stung – but continues…
Bad Dog!!!
Quote:
“Now, I’m a self-respecting vegan, and I fully expect to have a slice of pizza next time I’m in New York, deliberately. (BTW, pizza in NYC means a slice of cheese pizza, no other toppings.) Some people say it is this attitude specifically that excludes me from being a vegan, but I disagree. I consider myself to be a law-abiding citizen, but I occasionally exceed the posted speed limit (note: this is hard to do… I live in Los Angeles). One or two slices of pizza out of 1,095 meals (365 * 3) still makes me a vegan, in my book.”
I disagree with many points you have made but as the sentience of honey bees has yet to be determined, such disagreements are more emotional then a matter of ethics. (Although I absolutely do not eat honey because I don’t need too; therefore, why would I take their honey from them just because I like the taste? Which, of course, makes your termite example strained.)
However, this quote is somewhat stunning to me. By what definition of the term “vegan” are you relying on that allows you to eat a slice of cheese pizza and still remain a vegan? The latter half of your statement – the number of meals – is a non-issue in ethics. Perhaps we can aggregate and say that you are a low-end exploiter, however, if you consume cheese because you like it you are an exploiter nonetheless. If “veganism” can manifest itself in occasionally consuming dairy and still be a meaningful term, where does this end I wonder? If I only eat cow when I’m in Texas, but I otherwise avoid (as a means to gastronomical satisfaction, for example) all nonhuman products, can I still reasonably call myself vegan? This excludes non-intentional actions, etc., but your statement is explicitly intentional.
I think not, lest we make the term “vegan” somewhat meaningless. A bigot who only attacks homosexuals (just because it’s fun to attack gay people) when they are in San Francisco, is still a bigot. This holds even if said bigot marches in “gay pride” parades every other day of their life.
This all turns on how “veganism” is defined. However, the controversy aside (as you argue well in the post), when you make the choice to consume a nonhuman or their reproductive excretions because you enjoy the taste, I think you are defined out.
It’s curious that you make it a point to specify that you will only be eating pizza with cow milk on it – “no other toppings.” Why does this even warrant a mention? There seems to be an implied assumption about a hierarchy of “badness” between different forms of exploitation. Which, again if “veganism” is to be meaningful, doesn’t follow.
I had the same perspective about NYC pizza too for the first two years I went vegan. Then one time I had an upset stomach, providing me a visceral reason to stop.
Later, as I became more committed to activism, I realized that my behaviors really needed to be consistent with my beliefs. I realized that I had previously prioritized my own pleasure over the suffering of others.
I salute you for being 100% vegan 99.9% of the year, and hope that you will do even better in the future, either because of intestinal discomfort or just the desire to eliminate any last shred of cognitive dissonance.
With respect to honey, there may be a difference in the moral question when an insect threatens you or your property, when its killing is unintentional, and and when it merely has products that you find tasty. The former two situations may, but certainly do not unequivocally justify the killing; the latter seems to present a less-compelling moral claim. These three are uniquely different circumstances, and so I respectfully disagree with your assertion that to not kill bees for honey would be hypocritical. Whether bees are sentient, however, is admittedly a grey area and I don’t see anything wrong with you calling yourself vegan. But that said, using agave is certainly the more cautious route.
Good post. I learned a lot. I will eat honey if it’s an ingredient in something that is otherwise vegan and there are no other varieties available, but I don’t buy bottles of honey. I use agave nectar instead, which is wonderful because its sugars are supposed to enter your bloodstream more slowly.
I avoid honey because my understanding is that the bees’ honey is theirs, not ours, it takes them a lot of time and effort to produce it, they have their own uses for it, I respect bees and want them to have their reward (not sugar-water), agave nectar tastes just like honey to me, and I never ate it that much anyway.
I have little doubt that bees are sentient. I believe they think, have interests, and experience some version of contentment and fear, and possibly many graadtions and variations in between, even though all those experiences may be at a simplistic level. More broadly, given our severe underestimation of animal sentience and capabilities in general over the years, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to nonhumans who may be sentient but whose sentience status is unproven.
I greatly respect Matt Ball and Vegan Outreach, and hand out their pamphlets regularly, and generally agree that it does the animals no good to turn away a prospective vegan – or any interested person – because of the honey issue. OTOH, in my outreach, I express my opinions on honey when the subject comes up , and it never seems to turn people off or make them think that veganism is too difficult. More often, my impression is that it makes them think twice about honey and consider agave nectar.
Just a predicti0n – I could be wrong : When you get to New York, you won’t have that pizza. You know too much about how dairy is made – your conscience will stop you, and the vegan pizza will never have tasted sweeter.
I don’t get the honey thing. Sure bees are animals, but they’re insects… and they don’t have a developed sense of pain. Not to mention the fact that bees aren’t killed for honey, and live the lives they’ve pretty much lived all along.
If you want honey, eat honey. you’re still a vegan in my book.
How do you know bees don’t have a “developed sense of pain,” David? The answer is you don’t; you are assuming they don’t. I believe such an assumption is most likely valid; however, as I don’t need to consume honey (I want too), I find very little justification for doing so as it involves forcing the bees to produce for my palates benefit.
Furthermore, honey is produced for a reason – given that honey is, in fact, produced by the bees, as opposed to magically appearing. It follows, then, that there must be some purpose for it. It’s highly unlikely that that purpose is for your gastronomical pleasure.
They are not “pretty much living as they’ve lived all along.” You are making another assumption. Surely the honey was produced absent our interference – it’s not produced for us. Further, if we weren’t around, that honey would go to whomever or whatever it was intended. We necessarily must interfere with their lives; therefore, we are not respecting them but partially enslaving them because we enjoy the taste of honey.
From your rational David, non-vegans could justify all sorts of exploitation, which, again, belies the very concept of “veganism.”
Hi Tempyra,
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. We were both shocked when we read that too. The image of truckloads of bees rumbling down the highway was not something we’d ever imagined!
Hi Kate,
We’re looking forward to reading Engber’s book.
I agree that using the word “vegan” to identify what is in food is very helpful. I have been noticing a trend on some packaging… after the ingredients there is a bold notation “Includes: Soy, Wheat…” I believe this convention is to protect the manufacturers from lawsuits regarding allergenic foods. Honey could be listed this way too. This would make it easy for people to identify it if it is an offending product. (I don’t expect this will happen, and understand why it wouldn’t. However, as I do consume honey, I wouldn’t mind if it did.)
Regarding labeling people. I absolutely agree. But we’re labeling ourselves, and that opens the door for this type of criticism and “you’re not doing it right” finger-pointing.
Hi Shellyfish,
Yes, the controversy seems almost out of proportion to me. But since I’m coming at it from a health perspective first, perhaps my point of view is different than most others.
I do agree with you that people who wear leather or eat dairy or other animal products can send a bad message to the more critical folks out there, but they’re already critical anyway. I do believe that it is perfectly acceptable to step off the path on occasion. It just depends how you handle it. I would never walk into a pizza parlor and proclaim “I’m vegan, give me a slice of cheese pizza.” But when I next go to NY and have that slice, I will tell my companion/s that I’m stepping off the path. The people I associate with will accept that and not translate it into something other than what it is — a momentary desire for something I don’t normally consume. If a dialog ensues, I will certainly admit that vegan cheese leaves a lot to be desired, but I choose not to eat it for a variety of reasons, the exception being that slice of pizza. It’s funny to me how much condemnation this brings down on my head from the vegans. My omni friends are far more compassionate. (This is a general comment, not directed at you :) )
Hi Kem,
Thanks for that vote of confidence. I can only imagine how difficult it must being vegan in your situation. It’s amazing what people do to food. I recently learned from one of our readers, that Mexican rice is often prepared using chicken stock. As for avoiding that pork, it sounds like quite the challenge. My personal belief is that it is the intent that matters most. Keep up the good work!
Hi Heather,
Thank you for chiming in. I don’t know that much about honey production, and beekeeping, so I appreciate hearing from an expert.
Interesting to hear you relate keeping bees to keeping a dog. Certainly no one would condemn you for prohibiting your dog from eating whatever he finds on the street.
Hi Kara,
Bad dog!!! Silly dog?
Hi Alex,
I agree with you, in the strictest sense, the definition of vegan does not include ingesting honey as it is an animal product. However, I am drawing the line at insects. I identify myself as vegan, because I do not eat the typical vegetarian things… milk, eggs, and cheese. (Just for clarification, the amount of honey I consume is negligible, but because I am documenting my vegan journey, I include this discussion.)
As for my termite argument being strained… how do you stand on the issue of rental hives? This seems a far more anti-vegan practice to me, and if that’s the case, then what is there to eat? Not much on a global scale. It appears that there would not be a way to produce enough food for everyone the way things are managed today.
Regarding the pizza… First, I identified the cheese pizza to alleviate any confusion. I once referred to sushi as something I missed and received many comments that I could have vegan sushi. I meant I missed fish based sushi. I was trying to pre-empt the “you can have cheese-less pizza” comment, and never thought about the meat (because I’ve never ordered meat on a pizza… olives or mushrooms once in awhile, but 95+% of the time it’s been cheese pizza). However, I do believe there is a “hierarchy of badness.” I unequivocally believe it is far worse to torture and kill a sentient animal than to eat something that is collected from a non-sentient being in a manner that is considered unobtrusive.
Your arguments are valid, but I think you extrapolate out too far. I think you can reasonably call yourself vegan if you are predominantly vegan. Overwhelmingly, I eat vegan. The once or twice a year I deliberately choose to eat vegetarian doesn’t preclude me from calling myself vegan in my book. Labels are subjective though, and I would have a hard time identifying myself as vegan if I went out and had a steak once a week, even if I ate vegan at every other meal.
By your arguments, it would appear to me that no one living in this society could call themselves a true vegan. Where do you draw the line? My dentist uses latex gloves… casein. My house is painted… casein or marine oil. I drive a car. I’ve read that anti-freeze and brake fluid contain animal products, as do tires. I go to the movies on occasion… gelatin. Do these things mean I’m not vegan?
Finally, in my opinion, your definition of vegan is potentially off-putting for most people. It makes “vegan” too difficult to attain. If the goal is to truly reduce animal suffering, having the other 96% (generously assuming vegans are 4%) of the population give up meat one day per week would make more inroads than insisting that those of us who eat honey or even outright consume a non-vegan meal once in awhile call ourselves vegetarians or omnivores.
It’s late, I hope I addressed everything…
Hi Jason,
Yes, I’ve been warned that my system may no longer tolerate cheese. Especially since we’re eating less fat than before. It will be interesting to see if that is the case.
Jane and I have both noticed that the further along our path we’ve come, the more important the animal rights issues are to us. The turning point for her was when she watched Earthlings. I don’t really have a defining moment.
As I mentioned earlier in comments, I can certainly concede that in the truest definition of vegan, honey is not a vegan product. However, I personally do not feel a conflict consuming honey. Perhaps that will change as I continue along this path. Although I doubt it. I simply cannot place the same value on insect life. Call me a speciesist, tell me I’m not a true vegan. That is the line I have chosen to draw for myself. And again, if consuming honey is a non-vegan action, how is consuming produce pollinated with rental hives considered vegan? Those insects are living in far more harsh conditions.
As for agave nectar, I’ve read conflicting things about it, including this warning… the Food and Drug Administration notes that “in the past, agave products may have been ‘economically adulterated or misbranded by adding corn syrup or high-fructose corn syrup [HFCS].’ Chronic shortages of the plant make this a real concern.”
Hi Lindsey,
Glad you found the post valuable. Regarding agave nectar, see the previous paragraph. I haven’t come across anything negative about brown rice syrup though (that doesn’t mean there isn’t anything negative to be said… I just haven’t seen it :) )
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the input. When I use the sentience argument, I’m always a little leery myself. I agree, there is so much we don’t know. If you look at ants, you’d have to agree there is some kind of intelligence there as well.
However, I feel comfortable with this line for myself. And since I’m “documenting” my experiences/thoughts about what it mean to be vegan to me, I need to cover my stance on honey.
I am simply not that strict about anything. I believe, that as human beings, most of us are not consistent 100% of the time. I believe that it is okay to do something that deviates a bit from what you normally do, provided the deviation isn’t that radical. But that is my definition for myself. We all have to decide what we feel is right.
I have no doubt that your outreach is effective. You have a very compassionate approach.
As for your prediction, you’ve made it before ;) We’ll have to wait and see!
Hi David,
Thanks for the support.
Hi again Alex,
Since you’re pointing out my flawed arguments, I figured I’d return the favor ;) — “Furthermore, honey is produced for a reason – given that honey is, in fact, produced by the bees, as opposed to magically appearing. It follows, then, that there must be some purpose for it. It’s highly unlikely that that purpose is for your gastronomical pleasure.”
Fruits and vegetables aren’t produced for our gastronomic pleasure either. Plants grow these things without our intervention.
Of course if you argue that we have intervened, then you have to argue that we’ve interfered with natural selection in the breeding of bees as well as produce. Hybrid strains are cultivated for desirable traits (although the genetic manipulation of bees is much more recent than that of plants). And if that is the case, then you could argue that we have bred both the bees and the plants to produce for us.
Clearly we have drawn our lines in different places. I respect your opinion, I just don’t agree.
“There is a small, but vocal, minority of vegans out there who think that if you eschew animal products for any reason other than animal welfare, then you are not a vegan. ”
I have observed the meaning of the word “vegan” shifting from the original definition. For more and more people now – especially those who come to a vegan diet for health reasons – “vegan” is coming to mean “what you eat.”
But I choose to call myself a vegetarian (who eats a vegan diet) because even with the shifting of meaning, “vegan” has particular political implications that I don’t hold. Also, while I have come to share in much of the animal welfare beliefs pertaining to the philosophy of veganism, I do not share the entire philosophy and my primary reasons for eating a vegan diet are still religious and health reasons with animal welfare and the environment lower on my personal list.
Thus, for me, the label of “vegetarian (who eats a vegan diet)” is the most suitable. Eating only vegan food does not make me a vegan any more than eating only Chinese food would make me Chinese — there is more to being a vegan than what one eats.
That all being said, I respect the right of others to self-label and I respect the labels they choose. I value my autonomy of identity and would not want to deny the same to others. People know what they are and choose their labels accordingly. My choice of self-label should not be construed to indicate any level of attempted coercion of others to label in any way other than the way that feels most true to them.
In short: you, Lane, are a vegan. End of story. You know who you are and I respect that and have no reason to challenge your acknowledgement of self-identity.
Good blog entry!
(As for the insect/pain issue, I’m not a scientist nor a philosopher, and definitely not an insect so I have no authority to say one way or the other. I have observed insects taking actions to avoid locations, substances and activities that would be damaging to them so I tend to extrapolate that their behavior is based on a sense of pain. However, amoeba also recoil from damaging stimuli in a way that would tend to indicate a sense of pain yet were I to contract amoebic dysentery I can assure you that I would feel no qualms about doing what I could to kill those little critters.)
Sparrow
Quote:
“As for my termite argument being strained… how do you stand on the issue of rental hives? This seems a far more anti-vegan practice to me, and if that’s the case, then what is there to eat? Not much on a global scale. It appears that there would not be a way to produce enough food for everyone the way things are managed today.”
Unless we grow our own food, which I do to a point, however, as I live in Washington D.C. certain practical restrictions apply, I am compelled out of necessity to consume plants grown in these ways. Consuming honey is not a necessity, it is a preference; therefore, again, your analogy is strained. This is a common argument against veganism, which is easily defended against.
Quote:
“By your arguments, it would appear to me that no one living in this society could call themselves a true vegan. Where do you draw the line? My dentist uses latex gloves… casein. My house is painted… casein or marine oil. I drive a car. I’ve read that anti-freeze and brake fluid contain animal products, as do tires. I go to the movies on occasion… gelatin. Do these things mean I’m not vegan?”
If alternatives are available, and you have the means to avoid these products, and yet you choose the alternative, exploitative option, then yes, I don’t believe the concept “vegan” would apply. You can identify these objects; however, similar to the termite extermination example, honey (and cheese pizza) is not a valid analogy due to practical constraints.
If perfection were demanded from ethical systems, no individuals could live up to such a standard. However, your implied argument – that I am demanding “perfection” – is flawed because I am, in fact, not doing so. I am saying that you can refrain from consuming honey (and cheese pizza), unlike anti-freeze (?) unless you can avoid driving or find an alternative brand. Honey fulfills a desire that may involve harming a sentient creature; therefore, you are consciously selecting that option, which veganism explicitly rejects because it is a prejudice that compels us to do otherwise.
Quote:
“Fruits and vegetables aren’t produced for our gastronomic pleasure either. Plants grow these things without our intervention.”
Are you arguing that it is reasonable to assume that both plants and bees are sentient? If yes, I disagree, and would argue instead that such an assumption isn’t sound. Isn’t one a more sound assumption than the other given the evidence? However, assuming that it is (bees and plants are sentient), we require plants to live, unlike honey. Therefore, if we must fail to respect the interests of another as a means to survive, we should only do so in situations where there is a “need” demanding the failure – versus a desire to eat honey.
I still believe my argument (and analogies) hold in regards to your choice to consume cheese pizza when you are in NYC.
Thanks for the dialogue.
Further, it should be taken as a given that I don’t agree with “renting hives” for pollination purposes. But this is the world in which we currently live, therefore, it’s unfair to identify this as a flaw in my argument.
Consuming their honey as well, takes this exploitation unnecessarily farther, which I believe we ought to avoid because we don’t know if honey bees are sentient. I say, assume otherwise and act accordingly because it is not a major harm to any of your interests to do so. “Taste,” of course, being a minor interest.
Hi Sparrow,
Interesting comments. I would suspect we’re more in alignment with your philosophy. In reality, I really hate all of this labeling. It’s convenient though, to identify myself as vegan when eating away from home. But other than that, it sets you up to be criticized for being inconsistent, in some way or another.
Re the insect/pain issue… I read conflicting information. I’m happy with my lines as they stand right now.
Hi Alex,
We could go back and forth forever. You do present some interesting thoughts, and I understand where you are coming from.
My bottom line is that you do the best you can and make decisions that are right for you. I wholeheartedly believe that it is acceptable to consider yourself vegan and behave with the occasional inconsistency. Clearly, you don’t.
Regardless, I will continue to consume honey and call myself vegan. And if I do eat that cheese pizza in NY, I will still call myself a vegan, albeit one who ate vegetarian that day. Feel free to call me a vegetarian if you desire.
I agree that inconsistencies are acceptable if the actions cannot be otherwise avoided. I think that this is a reasonable requirement to make. My entire argument is predicated on this belief – a fairly uncontroversial belief I believe. Therefore, honey ought to be out; as should cheese pizza in New York.
I’ve enjoyed, as always, our conversation :)
Quote:
“However, amoeba also recoil from damaging stimuli in a way that would tend to indicate a sense of pain yet were I to contract amoebic dysentery I can assure you that I would feel no qualms about doing what I could to kill those little critters.”
Sparrow,
If you encounter an insect that is going to kill you – as with human beings – I think you can reasonably defend yourself without extrapolating beyond that to define an ethical principle. Nor does it make you a hipocrite if you otherwise believe that human beings shouldn’t be killed.
Hi Alex,
Yes, I too have enjoyed the conversation. I’ll be sure to keep you posted on the pizza thing. After tonight’s post Yet Another Reason Not To Eat Meat, who knows if I’ll actually be able to stomach the idea.
Alex,
Over the course of my life, I’ve known several pacifist vegans who would disagree with you about that. I have met people who would rather let an animal – human or non-human – kill them than to engage in violence themselves.
I am, most definitely, not a pacifist. Which automatically puts me at odds with a large percentage of vegans and vegan philosophy.
Hi Sparrow,
While there are some extraordinary pacifists who would not use any retaliatory force to defend themselves against humans or animals who were imminent threats to their lives or health, I think it is generally accepted, even among devoted pacifists, that in dire circumstances where one’s life or health is in serious, immediate danger, it’s ok to use self-defense tactics in order to escape that fate.
Of course, we should endeavor not to use excessive force or engage in gratuituous violence even in those circumstances.
And granted, there is no shortage of borderline cases which present ethical dilemmas.
But I suspect Alex’s larger point was that there is a distinction between defending yourself from immenent harm and engaging in exploitation.
Hi Lane,
With respect to film, I would say that honey is a more direct exploitation. In commercial honey production, bees are used explicitly for their utility value, and their food is taken from them for profit and pleasure.
Re: comparing fruit and honey. The bees have a sentient interest in consuming the honey, and may derive pleasure from consuming it and disappointment from having it taken away or from having none. Also, unlike the case with bees and honey, many plants require that the fruit be eaten by animals in order to propogate the species.
With respect to language, it’s interesting that you chose the word “gay” before. Does this sentence make sense (spoken by a man): “I’m heterosexual; I only have sex with men a few times a year?” More broadly, labels have different degrees of elasticity.
But I would say let’s not get hung up on labels. I witness too many arguments about “you’re not really vegan.” Some of the people who say this drink non-vegan beer, when vegan beer is right on the menu or store shelves.
If we try to refrain from exploitation as much as practical, try to remain honest about our avoidable contributions to exploitation, and try to practice compassion to all sentient beings, including fellow humans, I think those guideposts will get us where we all want to go.
BTW, just to be my own critic, the argument that fruit often needs to be ingested by beings other than the producer in order to spread seeds is, IMHO, fairly weak. I can think up lots of counterpoint.
OTOH, we have to eat fruits and vegetables in order to be healthy.
Hi Sparrow,
I would have to say that most of the vegans I know are pacifists to a degree, but it is a far lesser degree than allowing themselves to be harmed by another being….
Hi Gary,
Jane and I have been talking about this quite a bit over the past few days. If you use the example that a person who commits murder, even once is then deemed a murderer – then I am not a vegan. If you use the example of a kosher person who eats chinese food (not kosher) periodically, they are still kosher – then I am a vegan.
I think the basic difference in opinion here boils down to how you approach veganism. For Jane and me, the decision to go vegan was based primarily on our health, which probably explains our tolerance for the rare slice of pizza.
i am a pretty strict vegan
but welcome anyone making some effort at least to cut back on animal products. theres no point of being devisive about this we need all the help we can get. if we encourage people to make small changes instead of rebuking them i think it will encourage them to eventually make larger changes. i think you made some positive comments here
Hi vernon,
Thanks. You’ve pretty much summed up our philosophy. Small changes are easier, and once someone is comfortable with the small changes they’ve made they may be willing to continue along the path and make some larger changes (when things are less intimidating).
I personally have vowed that, although I AM now vegan; I refuse to push my version of vegan onto anyone else. I don’t eat honey anyway, I don’t like really sweet stuff. Some might eat soy cheese that has milk proteins in it and not flinch, I personally feel if they’re going to put milk proteins in it then it might as well be cows’ milk cheese. Thats MY opinion. I won’t tell another vegan (IF I ever meet another one here in the south…lol) that they’re not vegan because they ate that soy cheese with the milk protein in it. I just read all labels, the only thing I will allow is if it says that it was produced in the same factory as a milk or egg product, but doesn’t contain any knowingly. I just do my research on a brand before I buy it to know if I trust that they’d do their best to not contaminate.
Hi Jayme,
We believe that you are more likely to “convert” someone if you don’t try to shove your philosophies down their throat, but rather live your life well, and answer any questions that are asked of you. Our philosophy. (But you know that already after reading some of this blog :) )
As for what people eat, it is our stance that it’s better to have people eating mostly vegan than alienating them and suggesting they may as well be carnivores.
Hi
Chiming in with the pizza argument, I think as the definition of vegan is exclusionary then a slice of cheese pizza once a year or so does stop you being vegan. Perhaps 99% vegan
Consider teetotalism. A person who mostly abstains from alcohol but every year has a couple of beers (perhaps when he visits friends in NYC) is not a teetotaller. 99% teetotal, perhaps, though I wouldn’t expect that argument to cut any ice with AA.
Regarding the way words change their definitions, I take the point about how gay now means something different to what it meant in 1913, but gay is not a definition, unlike vegan. It’s not unreasonable to say the the people who belong to a certain ideology/lifestyle can define that ideology. Vegan has been so defined.
Consider other examples – Anarchism or Communism, for example. Anarchism, to most people, means Social Disorder and breakdown. To Anarchists, however, it means a non-hierarchical society based on co-operation and mutuality. And it has meant this since they invented the word in the 1850s. Don’t Anarchists have the right to define their own beliefs, even if the majority of people would disagree with said definition?
So, too, with Veganism
Hi Stephen,
Thanks for your input. I do agree that a group has the right to define itself. However, over time, those definitions tend to change a bit. Language is organic.
Interestingly, Jane and I consider ourselves teetotalers, but neither of us is 100% in this either. We do have the occasional drink, usually on holidays or when we’re out. But if you ask any of our friends or family, they’ll tell you we’re teetotalers too.
But honey is, basically, an animal product and bees are irritated and intruded upon for the honey.
People are always looking for loopholes:(
Pacifism does not make so much sense to me.
No one is happy for something like war and violence and all of that except for crazy people.
On the other hand I had a roommate some years ago, her boyfriend was being violent with her, if I had not interceded and helped her, if I was worried more about some idea of pacifism, how could I have lived with myself?
There doesn’t seem to be much sense to me in digging up definitions of veganism because I always thought I was making the choices I make to reduce my net damage on the planet environmentally and ethically not to earn the title “vegan”. And if product doesn’t increase my net damage but doesn’t fit a dictionary definition of vegan I’m not going to be too bothered by it.
I do agree that insects are creatures with a personal interest in staying alive and avoiding pain and I don’t want to interfere with that simply for bannana-honey sandwich, but from what I have seen of the beekeeping in my area I don’t think my sandwich is in conflict with their interests.
“Speeding,” means you are not a law abiding citizen.
It does not make you a mugger or an arsonist, but it is against the law.
You can decide for yourself if that is okay or not, but don’t pretend speeding is legal or eating pizza is okay for a Vegan.
Since honey is gotten in ways as to agitate and disturb the bees, it is not Vegan in my book. Maybe you should say you are vegetarian and just eat your sandwich and enjoy it.
Hi Addie,
Many people make that same argument. And I’ve replied to that point above. Basically, it’s your prerogative. Jane and I have spent time considering this and have concluded that we will continue to consume honey. You are, of course, entitled to do as you feel.
Hi Hannah,
Enjoying your insightful comments. I like the point about not earning the title “vegan” — However, we’ve put ourselves out there as “Vegan Bits” and so we have to have some kind of definition for ourselves since we are often challenged on our beliefs.
As for the insects. Yes, all the insects I’ve personally come across seem to have an interest in staying alive. However, I’m going to actively kill mosquitoes and termites. And I’m going to passively kill many insects driving, or simply living my life and that makes it kind of hard to put the honey bee aside and say it is wrong to eat honey. Also, as you point out, it doesn’t appear that the bees are particularly bothered by most honey gathering efforts. And the two bee keepers I know personally tell me bee keeping is fairly innocuous.
A word’s meaning can change for someone just to suit their comfort.
I see your point about the pizza. If you pretty much are a vegan, but then have one slice of pizza, suddenly changing the whole definition of the way you eat seems extreme.
I worry for myself about being too casual and making exceptions because it is hard to be Vegan right where I am and it would be easy to get lazy about it and start making a lot of exceptions, but also I try my best not to because then why am I reading all of the damn labels all of the time and doing all of the other stuff?
There are local farms that grow fruit that do not harm bugs, no?
And I don’t know about bugs, but honey seems like a deliberate, direct swipe at them.
I take back anything I have said about driving. From what I understand driving outside of NY (and Vermont, really) is much different. lol
Why don’t all vegans unite and redefine what vegan means.
Vegan – A term used to refer to a group of people who mostly eat vegetables but occasionally dabble into cheese pizza, ice cream and honey when cannot resist the temptation.
That will make everyone happy and this debate will go away.
The argument against drinking milk holds also against honey. Bees don’t collect it for humans. It is for their little ones. How much hard work those tiny things need to put in to collect a jar of honey.
And yes, occasionally speeding and going over the limit still breaks the law even if you don’t get a ticket.
If the term “vegan” is confusing to non-vegans, that is because of people like yourself, who say you are vegan when you are not. Your definition of a vegan as someone who occasionally eats cheese is ridiculous. Please stop muddying the waters for those of us who actually are vegan. You gain nothing by doing this, and hurt many, many people and animals in the process.
Please stop lying to yourself and the world, either by becoming a vegan in truth, or by calling yourself “a vegan-friendly omnivore.”
p.s.–for those of us who are vegan for ethical reasons, claiming to be a vegan who “occasionally” eats cheese is pretty much the same as saying, “I’m a feminist–I think rape is only o.k. if the rapist limits himself to one rape a year.”
See how ridiculous that suddenly sounds when you change the context?
I used to be a 90% vegan person myself, for two solid years, in fact, before becoming vegan. I have no problem with you NOT being vegan. All I’m asking you to do is please stop confusing the rest of the world about what veganism really is.
I very recently became vegan and have been researching the honey issue. I am currently a honey consuming vegan until I find a strong argument against it. So far, the arguments I have found seem fundamentalist. There is nothing in this world worse than fundamentalism in my opinion. But I will keep reading about it… Thanks for the post!
You are not vegan. Sorry.
Stop riding on our coattails for the ego trip. Accept that you are a vegetarian who eats a mostly vegan diet and live with it. Leave “being vegans” for vegans who want to walk the talk.
Stop confusing non-vegans as to what being vegan is.
The bee question is about ethics. Yes, bees are exploited to make honey. It is deliberate exploitation for self-gratification and financial benefit of humans.
Look at it from the abolitionist point of view using the ‘Black people as slaves’ metaphor. You are not anti-slavery if you still keep slaves. You are not anti-slavery even if you only whip black people twice a year. Vegan means no.
Look at it from a child abuse metaphor. You are not anti-child abuse if you only abuse children twice a year when you go on holiday to Cambodia. Vegan means no.
It comes down to intention. Abuse or exploitation for self-gratification is not vegan … and it is simply not necessary.
I have been a vegetarian for 25 years (or so I thought), recently making the decision to become vegan. It is a slow process. I do not consume or purchase any animal-based food or products. The reason it has not been an immediate conversion is because I still have dietary supplements in pill form that are encased in gelatin that I am not going to throw out. Once they are gone, I will switch to a vegan form of these supplements. Oh, and a few marshmallows. And… well, who knew how many seemingly “non-meat and non-dairy” foods actually contain animal derivatives? I now study the ingredients labels of all the foods I purchase. Labels can be deceiving – unless you know that oleic acid or calcium stearate are derived from sheep, hogs, and cattle, you would innocently think you are eating “vegan.” And now I read in this blog that driving my car goes against my ethics! Who’da thunk?
As far as the discussion at hand, I do not believe that eating cheese or honey “allows” you to be vegan. The argument for cheese not being vegan has been discussed (the worst offender in abusing animals is the factory farm); the best argument I have found for bees is that bees are enslaved by humans. An excerpt from “Why Honey is Not Vegan” (http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm) explains this: “Most honey comes from full-time factory bee farmers. A successor queen is selected by a human instead of the reigning queen – both of whom may have been “artificially inseminated.” Queens can live for as long as five years but most commercial beekeepers replace them every two years, and oftentimes, yearly. “Replace” is a euphemism for killing the queen. There are several reasons for this, which boil down to exerting control over the hive. It is done to prevent swarming, aggression, mite infestation, and to keep honey production at a maximum.”
Anyway, why eat an animal product when there are plenty of vegan substitutes (i.e., agave nectar in place of honey)? The argument that
one does not have access to vegan products is a lazy excuse. It may take a little effort on your part to read labels or cook your own food or develop your own recipes in order to ensure you are eating ethically, but then most things that you strongly believe in are worth that effort. I’m not saying I am perfect nor am I one to judge (think: gelatin supplements and marshmallows), but why do people feel compelled to label themselves as vegan if they are consciously going to eat cheese or honey, even if it’s only on “special” occasions?
Hey Lane (and Jane)!
I just got a notice of a post on a blog I’m subscribed to (It’s Not East to Be Green) and it made me think of this post of yours (and all the controversy it stirred up!) and I thought you might like to see her post. She’s a vegetarian who eats clam chowder once a year and she talks about labels and controversy and the (lack of) value of criticizing our fellow veg*ns.
http://noteasytobegreen.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/cheating-vegetarianism-and-other-things-on-my-mind/
Mistreatment of Queen Bees
http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm
Vegans eating honey sounds as stupid and contrary as vegetarians that eat eggs.
Sometimes it is very hard/impossible to avoid a product, but honey is not hard to avoid.
If a, “label,” annoys you and you use animal products, you do not have a problem, ” omnivore,” is not used a lot. lol
I must say I am still torn between all the information on being a Vegan. There is too much confusion and there are too many people making a big deal out of everything. In my personal opinion I think bee keeping is just fine and there is nothing wrong about it. The bees are doing what they naturally do the only difference is the beekeeping makes sure that the hive is in good shape and are able to produce honey. Just my thoughts!
It is not what the bees naturally do. They make their own food to eat through the winter. The beekeeper takes away their natural food and feeds them sugar water over the winter. They build up a harvest that is stolen from them and replaced with something that has calories but none of the important nutrients their original product had. Malnutrition is not what the bees “signed up for.”
@Sparrow–
Well put.
The fact that the Queens are artificially picked is a problem for me.
http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm
@Krill guru
It just sounds like you are confused. No offense.
A Vegan does not use animal products. That’s easy enough, right?
Some people make allowences for some kinds of products for whatever reasons, they do not care about bees so they will eat honey, etc.
or they are vegans for their health so many animal products do not matter to them.
What IS confusing is how animal products or harm to animals can be hidden in all kinds of things we cannot anticipate.
As in, the cultivating of Palm oil destroying, is it orangatans?
I am very surprised to hear that people believe that replacing honey with sugar-water (which is what happens when a hive’s stores of winter sustenance are taken for human consumption) does not impact bees.
Sugar-water does not provide the micronutrients and antibodies that bees need to remain healthy. Taking honey for human consumption and replacing it with sugar-water is one postulated reason for lowered bee resilience leading to colony collapse.
I certainly don’t eat honey, but I also don’t plan to eat cheese pizza and still call myself a vegan. If I did, I would call my diet “primarily vegan” instead of “vegan”. There are no vegan police, and veganism is not a badge that you earn, but words do have meaning, and as a matter of intellectual honesty, I try not to deceive. For me, its not about being “vegan,” its about being transparent and honest.
Posts like this are super helpful. We are trying to include more products in our local grocery store that cater to the Vegan culture and community. The more we can learn about the lifestyle the better we can serve them.
I do agree that there’s no perfect vegan out there. I think it is not an important debate. we all just want to be healthy. Eating meat can give some nutrients our body needs. we just have to make sure that the meat we are eating are grass feed. sea foods also is good for us. one example is a krill. krill oil is a rich source of omega-3. here’s a good article about krill oil – http://krilloil.mercola.com/krill-oil.html
I disagree. As a vegan, non vegetarian, I will do my utmost to adhere to a strict vegan diet and non use of any animal made products, by-products, used, tested or entertained. It is a very difficult matter. Not the diet, but the avoidance of the large amount of animal by-products that seek into our consumer products. As far as the diet goes, I am a label reader. And with technology right at my finger tips I can web search the names of ingredients I never heard of. Although, the best edible products are the ones that get us as close to natural as possible, i.e., organic fruits, vegetables and whole grain’s. I do not use honey, I do use Organic Stevia, if I need a sweetener. Instead of syrup I use organic berries heated till they burst with flavor. But with the vegan lifestyle growing in popularity and gaining a foot in the food industry, there is little to miss in flavors and substitutes in foods. All it takes is a little research. But the one ingredient you won’t find on any food package that is the main ingredient needed to be a true vegan is, compassion. With a heart and mind filled with compassion you see life is not about what we want, but rather what we need to make a better, peaceful and sustainable world. Compassion means, no ego. Letting go of the me factor. It is very hard, I know, but making the effort to always be conscience of all that life has to offer humans and non-humans, is a good start.
We need more posts like this, and more open minded vegans. Posts like this make “vegan” less of a scary word. Yes, the goal of vegans is to be compassionate and do as little harm as possible, but I feel the most important part of that includes encouraging others to eat less animals as well. It’s easy for vegans to know that we are “right”, and easy for us to be almost cultish in our approach. But this scares non-vegans away from the lifestyle- it even causes resentment. I love that you allow yourself a slice of pizza and honey. It makes you more relatable to a society that overall sees vegans as psychos. I’m ok with a world of non perfect vegans. Having numerous non perfect vegans is way better that having a only a few perfect ones. Vegans need to be less judgemental towards others – including other vegans- and not get so caught up in what “counts”.
why aim low when you can aim high…I prefer not to be on the lower end of the spectrum…
We should keep the movement strong and not weaken it for converts that will not even stay vegan anyway, keep the one’s who are the most dedicated they are the movements strength.
THE REAL BOTTOM LINE
I put it to you that the reason you (and the other article writer, et al) eat honey has nothing to do with any of the reasons put forward.
Not one.
Detractors of veganism who decide to discuss rationally will go back and forth with arguments and counter arguments, moving on to new ones if they concede on some point or just give up arguing it. If a detractor ended up seeming to agree with all points discussed they could then decide to go vegan or take up the last traditional and predictable fall back position.
“Well, I couldn’t change, I love meat too much.”
They believe it. If they ate no meat for a month they’d find out they can easily do without it but are unwilling or too terrified to try. People are also terrified of not eating. Two days into a fast and the body stops craving food and you can consume just water for the rest of your thirty day fast. Nope, you don’t die and legions of people will claim the curative and rejuvenating benefits are too numerous to count.
Now, honey is beyond delicious, healthful and has a texture all it’s own. Books have been written about this wonder food, wounds have been healed with it – germs can’t live in it – it has been found in ancient tombs, still intact and viable.
I grew up having honey sandwiches, that is a little bread with my honey, like my dad and I was always fascinated to help him while harvesting the honey. He was known as the honey man and we often had huge amounts in large tins. I was vegan some years before I realised honey was not on the list and went into mild shock. Don’t how I missed knowing but more or less decided that this was part of me and my upbringing and it would become my exception. I had half a jar which I could use up guilty free but every time I went to take it out I thought of the bees and left it there to have later.
Later never came.
Like so much in the vegan world, conviction trumps desire and desire – thankfully – fades.
The arguments put forward are like the carnivorous arguments, desperate pleas to not have to change and easily overturned by the most uneducated of vegans.
Put the honey in a cupboard for three months and don’t eat it. Then you will declare that it is exploitative and cruel etc and not what we do as vegans. Ralph Graham
That is so good to hear that bees are insects and not animals because honey and bee pollen are extremely nutritious!!! Evan the wax has a lot of healing virtues! :)
My husband and I are beekeepers. My nephew, who is a vegan, was visiting us recently. You eat only vegetables, fruits and grains. There are not enough wild bees in the world to pollinate these. Almost all you vegans eat is pollinated by pollinators where the European honey bee is the most important. If you deny their use and existence then you wouldn’t have a good deal of your fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables. Besides the fact that the medicinal uses are enormous. The use of sugar solutions to replace the harvested honey is NOT the reason for colony collapse. We’ve been beekeepers for 14 years harvesting honey once a year, allowing the bees to use what they need during the breeding season and then removing the last honey, which here in Sweden is heather and leaf honey with an enormous amount of waste products that is not good for the bees to eat during the winter. We have healthy beehives. What does cause Colony Collapse is pesticides, commercial beekeeping with trucking bees around. Point the finger in the right direction. If you eat honey at all do so from a hobby beekeeper who does not poison his bees with acids and pesticides. We love our girls, and we take care of them. As do many hobby beekeepers.
Hi Marsha
Thank you very much for your excellent comments regarding bees and honey. We have been eating honey exclusively from a neighbor who is a beekeeper.
Can’t we all just get along?? I am SO tired of debate for the sake of debate. There are valid points being made on all points of the spectrum. I do not want anyone telling me that in order to have faith, I MUST believe in GOD (in one sense or the other) nor do I want anyone telling me what kind of a Vegan I am or am not. We are in a world where everyone want to categorize everyone else. (and by the way, if you are not in the same category that I have placed myself, YOU ARE WRONG). Come on people, wars are being declared and fought in the (supposed) name of (insert deity here). How about perspective and priorities? How about choosing our battles. Are we really going to argue about what level of Vegan you are or I am?? Seriously…
Hi Lisa
Thanks for you comment. I couldn’t agree more.
Lane
I’m new to this ‘vegan’ thing and, quite honestly, I could be easily turned off to the “drink the cool-aid” mentality many of you seem to have. I am not referring to the writer (I really appreciate your article!!) but to those who look down at the rest of us because we’re not dogmatic like you. I am coming to this vegan thing, more appropriately “plant-strong”, for a quite different reason. I want to be healthier. We have chickens and even rabbits (still figuring out what to do with them all…lol) and quite honestly have not had a problem with eating animals…until I was educated on the downside of animal proteins. I have diabetes, heart disease, etc in my family, as does my husband. I want a healthier future for myself and my children. I want to lose weight and feel better! I don’t want to see animals harmed which is why I raise chickens and rabbits. But I would agree with the second to last post-er in asking can’t we all just get along? What about sharing the compassion with other PEOPLE that you supposed have for animals! We raise bees and I’m not getting rid of them. There are too many benefits to having them around. I’m glad I don’t call myself a vegan, some of you sound mean. I will ‘label’ myself an herbivore, or call myself ‘plant-strong’ as previously stated. I still won’t eat animals, and avoid animal products as much as humanly possible but my bees will pollinate my garden, as well as the neighborhoods gardens. My husband has been stung twice and that’s not a lot of bee death. I’m ok with it, because, as previously stated, insects die in large scale farming. My bees are very happy. They are not caged, they are free to go where they want. I will continue to consume honey. To the author, thank you for your article! I am not a perfect person (praise God for His grace and mercy in saving me) and I appreciate the freedom you afford me in not being a perfect ‘vegan’ as well!
I am actually really surprised by this… I thought vegans were supposed to be selfless individuals when it came to all living beings aside from plants…
To hear that you would consider yourself a vegan and will do something knowing that it is hurting/killing an animal just to serve a moment of pleasure/self indulgence is quite frankly, disappointing.
I am a vegetarian. I have been working on converting to vegan. I am not giving up honey. My stepdad is a beekeeper and we raise our Bees humanely. We only harvest the racks on top of the beehive, and leave the bottom racks of honey for the bees to eat . The only time they get sugar water is when it’s a new hive until they build up a supply of honey. We never take all of it, and in the winter we save back racks of honey to go into the hive to fill it and wrap them up for winter. The only time our Bees have died is if a mouse gets in the hive. They can come and go as they please, and my mom plants organic clover and flowers foe them. I understand the cruelty of animals etc. I avoid it at all costs in everything. If a bee or a cow is raised humanely with room to roam I don’t see any harm in sharing their by products. If they are not starving and treated well what’s the harm? Other than fulfilling some rules?
I used to be a strict vegan. I read the ingredient lists, and looked up information. I made sure to eat a variety of healthy foods to make sure I was getting all the nutrients that I needed. However, my health continued to deteriorate so I decided to go ahead and add honey back into my diet. While this has not made me super healthy or anything, I do feel a little better and I think it is because honey has healing properties. By the way, I love bees and am an advocate for bee rights. I also only eat raw, organic honey. In order for this honey to be considered organic, they have to have a natural, organic diet themselves.
Thank you for this post! It’s because of the dogmatic vegans out there that make me scared to admit to people that I’m vegan. I find when I take a non-judgmental stance when meat-eaters question my diet, they don’t make jokes or verbally attack me. I’ve had meat-eating boyfriends who converted to vegetarianism . I never showed them horrific videos or asked them to stop eating meat, they just decided to do it on their own. Maybe people would be more inclined to try being vegetarian/vegan if we stopped making ourselves look like the enemy. Sorry if it’s a little off topic. I guess the point I’m trying to make is I’m surprised at the lack of compassion a lot of vegans have, when veganism itself is about compassion. Fighting each other about the degrees of veganism doesn’t help anybody. I’ve seen vegans compare meat-eaters to Hitler, then flip their shit when non-vegans get upset about it. It just makes us all look bad. I view my veganism as a sort of religion. You don’t convert people with threats & accusations, you push them further away.
Thank you so much for writing this. I consider myself vegetarian/vegan and use the terms interchangeably. I think there is too much pressure in the vegan community to be perfect, and it becomes close-minded and dogmatic, as in a religious stance. Everyone needs to work independently to find what makes them an animal activist and then converge together with the community, showing everyone else out there that we are a pleasant minded group of educated people. If the point of veganism is to be open-minded and accepting, kind and compassionate, than this argument should not even exist.
If we strive to eat organically and vegan, this is mostly without labels, isn’t it? Fruits, vegetables, grains, these don’t have labels. So why should be label ourselves so strictly? A label is pointless; its the cover on a black and white mindset.
With this said, I do eat a 99 percent vegan diet and always strive for this wherever I am. I recently bought a bottle of local raw honey while traveling, and its helping my terrible insomnia and sore throat (I’m an opera singer). So? I like honey. It feels right to me. And you better believe that I tried some cheese in Wisconsin. Will I ever again? Probably not likely, but if its a special occasion in a special place that means something important to me or you, I say go for it. A person can’t always get vegan pizza, sometimes its ok to be starving and pick off all the meat and cheese in an attempt to nourish your hunger and soul.
its the bigger picture people. remain flexible. rigidity in anything leads to withering.
Hiya,
I think if you are going by the mark of ideological coherence then eating honey as a vegan cannot be justified; the bee’s hard labour is stolen from the bee, irrespective of the harm caused to the animal, this relationship is one of domination: the animal is exploited for the benefit of the exploiting species. Thus as a vegan you cannot justify this- irrespective of your culinary preferences.
There is however another debate amongst vegans and ecologists which concerns the preservation of bees. Unfortunately the use of neonicotinoids is resulting in bee colony collapse almost everywhere agricultural world. Bees are an essential link in all ecosystems of which they are part of, and an essential aspect ecostystem preservation. Now, there are types of bee king often referred to as ‘natural’ bee-keeping or ‘sustainable bee keeping’ which are designed to maintain the natural functions of the hive without interruptions. These forms of bee keeping have been seen as highly beneficial in the preservation of bees. The pragmatist vegan argument here, is that by purchasing natural or sustainable bee keeping honey, one is stimulating this kind of practice. I think it makes sense for a vegan to take this stance, though I myself have not yet decided, as it is the choice which has the highest beneficial impact upon other animals. This decision however would not be based on one’s culinary preferences!
“Yes, you can be vegan one day per week. If you choose to eat honey, I believe you are not “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.” And I have to ask the less flexible members of the vegan community, what exactly is the goal here? Because it seems to me, if you are coming at veganism from an animal rights or environmental perspective, every little bit helps.”
I agree that every little bit helps. I think that it is still beneficial if people eat less animals products. The fact that some of us are unable to filter out every possible animal product that may be in some of the products we buy is no reason that we can’t gradually reduce our reliance on animal products. Particularly, I think that the consumption of meat will be the first thing that needs to be eliminated. We can work on the other issues over time.
Excellent article. Anyone who thinks that honey extraction from a hive is harmful to the bees, or indeed proposes that the feeding of sugar water to bees makes them unhealthy or is the reason for colony collapse clearly has never had any experience of bee keeping. Laughable, frankly.
Personally, I prefer to use maple syrup instead of honey.
I am new to veganism, and I still eat honey. I had a pretty indepth conversation with another vegan on this topic a month ago and she was say how we are enslaving and abusing the Bee’s. I understand mass factor farms are bad, and vegans live with compassion for all fellow living entities. But were is line drawn. Nector is not a product of the bees just transformed by them. On that note, apples and other vegetables require Bee’s to polenate them that makes them a Bee’ bi-product. What I’m getting at is that we are in a symbiotic relationship with Bee’s if I get my Honey from a local farm whom truely enjoys his farm and the Bee’s that are apart of it; that fits in the number 1 rule of Veganism that being compassion
Hi Cameron,
Thanks for the comment. Yes, tolerance and compassion should be rule #1 for vegans.
I’m sorry, but eating pizza from NYC just because you want the taste or experience does not make you vegan. In fact, it’s not even specifically the eating that is what makes you nonvegan, but the fact that you would selfishly ignore everything that it stands for just for you palate, which makes you really no different than a nonvegan person. I’m disappointed and saddened by your post, please stop confusing the meaning of veganism for your own selfish reasons.
The writer is very inconsistent and while I totally understand the honey debate, if you “sometimes” eat cheese pizza you’re not vegan by any means. That just means you eat a majority plant based diet, and sometimes eat animal products. I don’t know how this is hard to understand.