Comments on: Snips And Snails And Puppy Dog Tails http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/ Tue, 16 Mar 2010 03:52:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Lisa R http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3063 Lisa R Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:59:35 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3063 I am glad you posted this, and I am glad to be able to read the nice discussion in the comments. I find it strange that people think you can EITHER get a purebred animal OR a shelter dog. The HSUS estimates that one in four dogs in shelters is purebred. On petfinder.com, you can search for specific breeds. I am glad you posted this, and I am glad to be able to read the nice discussion in the comments.

I find it strange that people think you can EITHER get a purebred animal OR a shelter dog. The HSUS estimates that one in four dogs in shelters is purebred. On petfinder.com, you can search for specific breeds.

]]> By: Gary http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3061 Gary Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:35:23 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3061 >>>Again, the most important thing is, whether adopted or bought from a responsible, caring breeder, is that the dog be given a loving home.<<< If by buying rather than adopting a dog, one is knowingly or through willful ignorance causing another dog to be deprived of a home or to be killed, it makes a mockery of the concept of giving a dog a loving home. Granted, there's plenty of blame to go around: thoughtless buyers, puppy chains that think only of profit, under-enforcement by the USDA and so forth. Animal rights and animal protection groups spend a lot of resources fighting these things. I regularly attend anti-Petland protests and pass out anti-puppy mill materials. But small breeders still contribute to these avoidable, curable problems. I tend to put a little more blame on the breeders than the buyers, because a) they are more likely to be aware of the homeless animal situation, b) if they don't breed (and in most cases advertise their animals for sale), people won't buy. If we stop breeding, will all these people who can no longer buy a dog then adopt one? No, but some will, especially if all the former breeders promote adoption. Once we are not killing millions of innocent homeless dogs and cats every year, then maybe we can look at breeding. Though I'd rather look at helping feral cats, rescuing rabbits and guinea pigs and birds, and so forth. When we're not killing or warehousing homeless companion animals of any species anymore, *then* we can consider breeding - probably under highly regulated cirucmstances, to avoid the myriad health and overpopulation problems brought on in part by breeding. (Most breeds have heritable health problems - some quite serious.) I don't agree that where one acquires a dog is strictly a matter of personal choice, i.e., that there is no compelling ethical component governing that choice. IMHO people acquiring a dog are obligated to consider the profound interests of the dogs whom their decision affects. >>>Again, the most important thing is, whether adopted or bought from a responsible, caring breeder, is that the dog be given a loving home.<<<

If by buying rather than adopting a dog, one is knowingly or through willful ignorance causing another dog to be deprived of a home or to be killed, it makes a mockery of the concept of giving a dog a loving home.

Granted, there’s plenty of blame to go around: thoughtless buyers, puppy chains that think only of profit, under-enforcement by the USDA and so forth. Animal rights and animal protection groups spend a lot of resources fighting these things. I regularly attend anti-Petland protests and pass out anti-puppy mill materials. But small breeders still contribute to these avoidable, curable problems.

I tend to put a little more blame on the breeders than the buyers, because a) they are more likely to be aware of the homeless animal situation, b) if they don’t breed (and in most cases advertise their animals for sale), people won’t buy.

If we stop breeding, will all these people who can no longer buy a dog then adopt one? No, but some will, especially if all the former breeders promote adoption.

Once we are not killing millions of innocent homeless dogs and cats every year, then maybe we can look at breeding. Though I’d rather look at helping feral cats, rescuing rabbits and guinea pigs and birds, and so forth. When we’re not killing or warehousing homeless companion animals of any species anymore, *then* we can consider breeding – probably under highly regulated cirucmstances, to avoid the myriad health and overpopulation problems brought on in part by breeding. (Most breeds have heritable health problems – some quite serious.)

I don’t agree that where one acquires a dog is strictly a matter of personal choice, i.e., that there is no compelling ethical component governing that choice. IMHO people acquiring a dog are obligated to consider the profound interests of the dogs whom their decision affects.

]]> By: Gary http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3060 Gary Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:11:48 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3060 Megan, I know some very nice breeders, too, who take great pains to make sure their dogs and/or cats are well-cared for, go to a good home, etc. I would never call breeders evil and cruel, I would never call farmers evil and cruel. But that doesn't make them blameless. What they're doing is wrong because as a result of their choices, innocent animals are killed or at the very least denied a home. The puppy mills are of course are worse, and the people who buy dogs at pet stores are contributing to even more cruelty, but breeding companion animals while there are homeless animals is wrong, causes unncecessary and avoidable death and suffering, and should not take place. Therefore I cannot call any breeding of companion animals at this time "responsible." The only exception might be highly specialized dogs for highly specialized situations, such as therapy dogs for emotionally disturbed children. I fully acknowledge that some breeders do rescue also. To them I plead: Why not do all rescue? You would be prefect for the task. Megan,

I know some very nice breeders, too, who take great pains to make sure their dogs and/or cats are well-cared for, go to a good home, etc. I would never call breeders evil and cruel, I would never call farmers evil and cruel. But that doesn’t make them blameless.

What they’re doing is wrong because as a result of their choices, innocent animals are killed or at the very least denied a home.

The puppy mills are of course are worse, and the people who buy dogs at pet stores are contributing to even more cruelty, but breeding companion animals while there are homeless animals is wrong, causes unncecessary and avoidable death and suffering, and should not take place.

Therefore I cannot call any breeding of companion animals at this time “responsible.” The only exception might be highly specialized dogs for highly specialized situations, such as therapy dogs for emotionally disturbed children.

I fully acknowledge that some breeders do rescue also. To them I plead: Why not do all rescue? You would be prefect for the task.

]]> By: Vegan Libre http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3059 Vegan Libre Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:21:29 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3059 I'm with you, Megan! While adopting a dog is very noble and should be encouraged whenever possible, there is nothing wrong with people breeding dogs who are passionate about it, the way your mother does. Where one acquires a dog is a matter of personal choice, but supporting a small private breeder like you describe _is not_ equivalent to promoting murder, as some have suggested! (Buying from a pet store on the other hand is just plain impulsive and ignorant, and should not be compared.) My father for example dreams of one day just living out in the country and breeding dogs because he loves that, not because he wants to create a puppy factory and make lots of money. I don't see that as a problem. Again, the most important thing is, whether adopted or bought from a responsible, caring breeder, is that the dog be given a loving home. - Leo I’m with you, Megan! While adopting a dog is very noble and should be encouraged whenever possible, there is nothing wrong with people breeding dogs who are passionate about it, the way your mother does. Where one acquires a dog is a matter of personal choice, but supporting a small private breeder like you describe _is not_ equivalent to promoting murder, as some have suggested! (Buying from a pet store on the other hand is just plain impulsive and ignorant, and should not be compared.)
My father for example dreams of one day just living out in the country and breeding dogs because he loves that, not because he wants to create a puppy factory and make lots of money. I don’t see that as a problem. Again, the most important thing is, whether adopted or bought from a responsible, caring breeder, is that the dog be given a loving home.
- Leo

]]> By: Megan http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3058 Megan Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:14:03 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3058 I myself feel somewhat torn, as a vegan whose mother has been breeding Shetland Sheepdogs for the show ring for over twenty years. I really resent the implication - not here, but elsewhere - that people who intentionally breed dogs are evil, selfish, cruel, etc. by default. My mother has literally devoted her life to caring for her dogs, and to breeding and raising healthy animals with sound temperaments. She raises one litter a year - sometimes less - and is extremely careful about selecting homes for puppies that don't make the grade as show dogs. What's more, she's actively involved in breed rescue and has a very prominent "open door policy" for any dog that she's bred: if at any time the owner can't or won't continue to care for the dog, it has a home with us until it reaches the end of its life or a suitable, loving home is found. She's made good on that policy. What's more, she has never been out to make a profit on the breeding of dogs, and certainly she never has. I have to acknowledge that there are fine, lovely dogs to be found in shelters and through rescue. But at the same time, is condemning all breeders - and calling for the complete abolition of the practice - really necessary? The vast bulk of the money in dog breeding comes from high-volume commercial enterprises, where dogs are factory farmed. Why attack the very-small-scale breeders, and the people who choose to acquire puppies and older dogs from them, while the puppy mills and pet shops continue to churn out sickly, inbred dogs with questionable temperaments? I realize that this isn't a popular opinion in the vegan community. And, as I have said, I still find it a personal challenge to justify the breeding of more dogs with the existence of unwanted ones. But there are so many factors - primary among them pet owners who view their dogs as disposable toys to be dumped when they lose their luster - that pointing fingers solely at every person who decides to breed a litter seems off-base. For the record: I share my home with an elderly Sheltie who was part of my mom's breeding program and is now enjoying his retirement years on the couch. He's vegan, too. I myself feel somewhat torn, as a vegan whose mother has been breeding Shetland Sheepdogs for the show ring for over twenty years. I really resent the implication – not here, but elsewhere – that people who intentionally breed dogs are evil, selfish, cruel, etc. by default. My mother has literally devoted her life to caring for her dogs, and to breeding and raising healthy animals with sound temperaments. She raises one litter a year – sometimes less – and is extremely careful about selecting homes for puppies that don’t make the grade as show dogs. What’s more, she’s actively involved in breed rescue and has a very prominent “open door policy” for any dog that she’s bred: if at any time the owner can’t or won’t continue to care for the dog, it has a home with us until it reaches the end of its life or a suitable, loving home is found. She’s made good on that policy. What’s more, she has never been out to make a profit on the breeding of dogs, and certainly she never has.

I have to acknowledge that there are fine, lovely dogs to be found in shelters and through rescue. But at the same time, is condemning all breeders – and calling for the complete abolition of the practice – really necessary? The vast bulk of the money in dog breeding comes from high-volume commercial enterprises, where dogs are factory farmed. Why attack the very-small-scale breeders, and the people who choose to acquire puppies and older dogs from them, while the puppy mills and pet shops continue to churn out sickly, inbred dogs with questionable temperaments?

I realize that this isn’t a popular opinion in the vegan community. And, as I have said, I still find it a personal challenge to justify the breeding of more dogs with the existence of unwanted ones. But there are so many factors – primary among them pet owners who view their dogs as disposable toys to be dumped when they lose their luster – that pointing fingers solely at every person who decides to breed a litter seems off-base.

For the record: I share my home with an elderly Sheltie who was part of my mom’s breeding program and is now enjoying his retirement years on the couch. He’s vegan, too.

]]> By: Lane http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3054 Lane Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:17:15 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3054 Hi jennifer, It makes us sad as well. Jane couldn't believe that this person wants a puppy so badly she's already named him, but she's waiting - possibly until the spring - to get him. Hi Vegan Libre, I didn't mean to imply that all breeders are evil. (one of the perils of writing just before bedtime is that sometimes I come out sounding crankier than I am in real life.) I'm sure that many love their animals, treat them wonderfully, and get great joy in their work. My real issue, and Gary (comment below) is again more eloquant than I am, is that by buying an animal, "you" are supporting an industry that doesn't treat animals well in general. And "you" are sentencing an animal to death or a lifetime in a cage. Interesting comment about the longest-running genetic engineering experiment. I'd never thought of it like that before. Hi M, Thank you for that link. I've heard that purebreeds are often subject to all sorts of genetic issues that mixed breeds don't succumb to, but I had no idea that it was so bad. Nor was I aware that there were issues of inbreeding and lack of genetic diversity. Hi Sue, We strongly recommend rescues when we hear of people looking for pets. I'll be sure to pass along the info on the Burbank G.S. rescue next time I hear of someone looking for a shepherd. Unfortunately, one of the problems with shelters and rescues is that many people believe getting an older pet means getting a pet with problems. Even if it's not the case, it can take a bit longer for the animal to bond with you. Personally, I believe they know you've saved them from something and are eternally grateful. Hi Emily, I love chatty kitties! Our kitties are both "rescued." One was feral and one is from the pound. They adore us. We adore them. There are days when one of us might say, "ooh I'd love a siamese cat" or a ragdoll, or a sphynx kittie. But a few of the pounds around here have websites and you can look at all those animals waiting for a home, and that's it for us. All our companion animals will be rescued! Hi Anna, I'm not sure it's an elitist mindset. I think it's probably a thought-less behavior. If you watch the dog show, you learn to want a particular breed. (Jane thinks Corgis are wonderful animals.) Where do you get a particular breed, why from a breeder of course! You would not believe how many people I've spoken to who have never heard of breed rescues. Nor have they given thought to contacting their shelter and requesting to be called if the dog they're looking for shows up. Often, it's about education. Hi Diane, Wow, I've never heard of a mean lab. I have run across less gregarious labs. But I've heard that too, that "irresponsible" breeding leads to all kinds of problems. On the other hand, M links to a report above by the BBC about the problems inbreeding is causing for these animals, which sounds much more serious to me! Hi Gary, I found it very distressing to hear that Biden went thru a breeder for his dog. When the democrats come into office you expect to see positive social changes, perhaps that still doesn't include animal rights. Hi jennifer,
It makes us sad as well. Jane couldn’t believe that this person wants a puppy so badly she’s already named him, but she’s waiting – possibly until the spring – to get him.

Hi Vegan Libre,
I didn’t mean to imply that all breeders are evil. (one of the perils of writing just before bedtime is that sometimes I come out sounding crankier than I am in real life.) I’m sure that many love their animals, treat them wonderfully, and get great joy in their work.
My real issue, and Gary (comment below) is again more eloquant than I am, is that by buying an animal, “you” are supporting an industry that doesn’t treat animals well in general. And “you” are sentencing an animal to death or a lifetime in a cage.
Interesting comment about the longest-running genetic engineering experiment. I’d never thought of it like that before.

Hi M,
Thank you for that link. I’ve heard that purebreeds are often subject to all sorts of genetic issues that mixed breeds don’t succumb to, but I had no idea that it was so bad. Nor was I aware that there were issues of inbreeding and lack of genetic diversity.

Hi Sue,
We strongly recommend rescues when we hear of people looking for pets. I’ll be sure to pass along the info on the Burbank G.S. rescue next time I hear of someone looking for a shepherd. Unfortunately, one of the problems with shelters and rescues is that many people believe getting an older pet means getting a pet with problems. Even if it’s not the case, it can take a bit longer for the animal to bond with you. Personally, I believe they know you’ve saved them from something and are eternally grateful.

Hi Emily,
I love chatty kitties!
Our kitties are both “rescued.” One was feral and one is from the pound. They adore us. We adore them. There are days when one of us might say, “ooh I’d love a siamese cat” or a ragdoll, or a sphynx kittie. But a few of the pounds around here have websites and you can look at all those animals waiting for a home, and that’s it for us.
All our companion animals will be rescued!

Hi Anna,
I’m not sure it’s an elitist mindset. I think it’s probably a thought-less behavior. If you watch the dog show, you learn to want a particular breed. (Jane thinks Corgis are wonderful animals.) Where do you get a particular breed, why from a breeder of course! You would not believe how many people I’ve spoken to who have never heard of breed rescues. Nor have they given thought to contacting their shelter and requesting to be called if the dog they’re looking for shows up. Often, it’s about education.

Hi Diane,
Wow, I’ve never heard of a mean lab. I have run across less gregarious labs. But I’ve heard that too, that “irresponsible” breeding leads to all kinds of problems. On the other hand, M links to a report above by the BBC about the problems inbreeding is causing for these animals, which sounds much more serious to me!

Hi Gary,
I found it very distressing to hear that Biden went thru a breeder for his dog. When the democrats come into office you expect to see positive social changes, perhaps that still doesn’t include animal rights.

]]> By: Gary http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3051 Gary Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:51:34 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3051 Given that there is not enough space to house all the homeless dogs, cats and other companion animals, to buy or breed rather than adopt is, in most cases, condemning an innocent animal to death. How can a "dog lover" do that? I'm especially dismayed by Biden, given the very public announcement by Obama that he's adpoting rather than buying. Hello? I also have heard that the owner of the kennel from which Biden bought his puppy also owns what appears to be a puppy mill in PA, with 100 breeding dogs. Shame! Given that there is not enough space to house all the homeless dogs, cats and other companion animals, to buy or breed rather than adopt is, in most cases, condemning an innocent animal to death. How can a “dog lover” do that?

I’m especially dismayed by Biden, given the very public announcement by Obama that he’s adpoting rather than buying. Hello?

I also have heard that the owner of the kennel from which Biden bought his puppy also owns what appears to be a puppy mill in PA, with 100 breeding dogs. Shame!

]]> By: Diane http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3043 Diane Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:53:29 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3043 I totally agree! 100%! We got both ours from a shelter. Like someone mentioned above some breeders get dogs that they can't show/breed and more often than not these dogs are dumped at the pound, or just let out onto the streets. Ours are pure Dalmatian (my personal favorite breed), and were found roaming the streets, picked up by animal control. Dumped because they are not showable or breedable due to markings (they have patches). There are MANY MANY purebred dogs in the shelters, many rescues specializing in different breeds so choosing a breeder is NOT a responsible option! For the comment above "For example, there is no doubt that certain breeds are friendlier/more playful than others." Actually this is getting less and less true as more and more puppies are being bred. It used to hold true that labradors were the perfect family pet because of their friendly nature. Al but ONE lab I have met has been mean, really mean. We had one attack us on our afternoon walk, that ended up costing us $500 in vet bills as it ripped my dog to pieces! Please don't stereotype dogs by breed! Each dog is an individual, and should be treated as such. I totally agree! 100%! We got both ours from a shelter. Like someone mentioned above some breeders get dogs that they can’t show/breed and more often than not these dogs are dumped at the pound, or just let out onto the streets. Ours are pure Dalmatian (my personal favorite breed), and were found roaming the streets, picked up by animal control. Dumped because they are not showable or breedable due to markings (they have patches). There are MANY MANY purebred dogs in the shelters, many rescues specializing in different breeds so choosing a breeder is NOT a responsible option!

For the comment above

“For example, there is no doubt that certain breeds are friendlier/more playful than others.”

Actually this is getting less and less true as more and more puppies are being bred. It used to hold true that labradors were the perfect family pet because of their friendly nature. Al but ONE lab I have met has been mean, really mean. We had one attack us on our afternoon walk, that ended up costing us $500 in vet bills as it ripped my dog to pieces! Please don’t stereotype dogs by breed! Each dog is an individual, and should be treated as such.

]]> By: Anna http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3041 Anna Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:14:35 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3041 Hearing about people that insist on a pet from a breeder makes me sad too. I volunteer at a no-kill shelter and I can see how expensive it is to maintain such an operation. If only people would wake up from their elitist mindset. Hearing about people that insist on a pet from a breeder makes me sad too. I volunteer at a no-kill shelter and I can see how expensive it is to maintain such an operation. If only people would wake up from their elitist mindset.

]]> By: Emily http://veganbits.com/snips-and-snails-and-puppy-dog-tails/comment-page-1/#comment-3040 Emily Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:50:11 +0000 http://veganbits.com/?p=935#comment-3040 I agree completely. My father is a high-up ranked veterinarian in the LA City Shelters (I think he's responsible for at least 3 of them...) and he sees many animals put to sleep every day, cuz of lack of space/funding to foster that many homeless pups. My roommate/friend paid $600 for each of her fancy Burmese cats... highly overrated, in my opinion. Burmese have the most IRRITATING voices. I love my two free cat-mutts to DEATH, they sleep in my bed and i love them like children. One I got from a lady down the street with barn-kittens, and one I got from a local animal hospital who was fostering him, when they wre both around 8 weeks old. I want a dog, and when I do get one, it will definitely be a shelter dog. I agree completely.
My father is a high-up ranked veterinarian in the LA City Shelters (I think he’s responsible for at least 3 of them…) and he sees many animals put to sleep every day, cuz of lack of space/funding to foster that many homeless pups.
My roommate/friend paid $600 for each of her fancy Burmese cats… highly overrated, in my opinion. Burmese have the most IRRITATING voices.

I love my two free cat-mutts to DEATH, they sleep in my bed and i love them like children. One I got from a lady down the street with barn-kittens, and one I got from a local animal hospital who was fostering him, when they wre both around 8 weeks old.

I want a dog, and when I do get one, it will definitely be a shelter dog.

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